Are You Building Value Or Buying Leaks

A commercial roof can look “fine” and still be one storm away from blowing up your budget. We bring on Max Beasley from Quality Roofing to get brutally practical about how to evaluate roof risk before you buy, what failure points show up first, and how smart owners keep small issues from turning into full roof replacement.

We dig into the real-world differences between TPO, PVC, and EPDM roofing systems, including why PVC often earns its keep on restaurants and industrial buildings where grease and chemicals hit the membrane. Max also walks us through what sits under the roof surface, from deck types to polyiso insulation, code-driven R-value targets, and why tapered insulation can make drainage better while driving labor and cost. If you’ve ever wondered what you should actually look for on a roof walk, we cover flashings, coping, penetrations, seams, scuppers, and clogged drains, plus how those clues show up in a due diligence inspection report.

Then we shift to ownership and operations: preventive maintenance programs, why other trades leave behind puncture-causing screws, and how metal roof fasteners and gaskets quietly age into leaks. We also talk roof coatings as a cost-conscious life extender, what a realistic warranty depends on, and how your hold strategy changes the right decision between coating, repair, and replacement.

Subscribe for more commercial real estate investing fundamentals, share this with a friend who owns a leaky building, and leave a review with the roof problem you want us to tackle next.

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Transcript

Blue Dirt And The MEPR Lens

Michael Carro 0:00

Welcome to Blue Dirt, the podcast that digs deep into the foundation of commercial real estate investing. Unlike most real estate shows that focus on deal making and market trends, Blue Dirt gets into the nuts and bolts of what truly builds long-term value, the building itself. We break down how to spot deferred maintenance before it costs you, why a solid preventative maintenance program is a game changer, and how triple net leases can maximize your investment returns. We'll also explore the importance of strong landlord-tenant relationships and how they drive stability and growth in your portfolio. Whether you're a seasoned investor or just getting started, Blue Dirt gives you the practical knowledge to make smarter, more profitable decisions in commercial real estate. It's time to get your hands dirty and build value from the ground up. Let's dig in.

Meet Max And Quality Roofing

Michael Carro 0:52

Welcome to Blue Dirt, where even idiots can make a killing in commercial real estate. Today we're joined by Max Beasley with quality roofing. And one of the major subjects we always run into in our buildings are roofs, mechanical, electrical plumbing. Those are the four things that we always focus on. Roofs and air conditioning tend to be the top two things. So we thought bringing Max in and helping educate us would be a great uh opportunity to have a show. So, Max, welcome to the program.

Max Beasley 1:21

Thank you. I appreciate you guys asking me to be on.

Michael Carro 1:23

You're gonna, if you're gonna be on this program, you better talk into that microphone, Max. Pull it a little closer. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid, Max.

Max Beasley 1:31

Thanks, Michael. I appreciate you guys asking me to come on.

Michael Carro 1:34

Well, we're glad to have you. Um so uh of course I'm joined by Don Redhead and I'm Michael Carrot. So, Max, why don't you just start off generally speaking about your experience in the industry? How long have you been uh in roofing, and just a little bit about that experience, and then we'll dive into just general questions.

Speaker 1 1:52

That sounds great. Um, I I actually was in the military from 1986 to 1990 and got out of the military and joined the roofing corps. So I've been roofing for a little while, been in and out of it uh a couple of times, uh trying trying different things, went back to college, got some, got my degree, and that kind of thing. But seems like roofing always pulls you back in, which is not a bad thing.

Michael Carro 2:14

You know what I want to you know what I want do you to pull back in is your mouth to that microphone. Just you gotta get right out of the way. Like like it's an ice cream cone. Just lick it.

Speaker 1 2:23

How's that? Is that better?

Michael Carro 2:24

It's better, it's better. There you go.

Speaker 1 2:26

So so I've been roofing uh from about 1990 uh to now, uh, with a few breaks here and there, but uh really enjoyed it. It's a lot of fun. Um lots of things that you can find out about a building just by walking on the roof.

Michael Carro 2:39

Absolutely. So uh in your in your experience, and now so tell us a little bit about quality roofing and the types of roofing. Do they do everything? Residential, commercial? What what is their what is their strength?

Speaker 1 2:52

Yeah. Brian started uh quality roofing back in 2006. Um he was working for a gentleman, gentleman here, and uh I I assume they just felt like he can do it a little bit better and a little bit faster. Um so he's been in business for about 20 years. I think uh when they started out the business, it was more just residential uh shingle roofing. Okay. Um they have uh nine sales guys that work for the company and and reps that stay on the jobs uh that make sure everything's gonna go the right way and the customer gets a good experience. So um, but yes, we we offer shingles, uh we offer commercial roofing, as you guys know. Uh I was glad to get back in touch with Don. So um metal roofing, any any kind of roofing that you can think of.

Michael Carro 3:35

Fantastic. Well, I know that most of our roofs tend to be TPO.

TPO Vs PVC Vs EPDM Basics

Michael Carro 3:40

Um, what does TPO stand for?

Speaker 1 3:43

Thermoplastic. Okay. Okay. It's uh there's there's numerous products on the market now, but TPO, um, based on how it's how it's uh manufactured and the chemicals that go in it, it's got a scrim in it, uh, which is which makes it almost, I don't want to say it's impenetrable, but um it holds up really well to our Florida sun. Um there's PVC, there's EPDM, there's all kinds of different products.

Don Redhead 4:09

Okay. And what's the difference between those those three? And what where would you use those in specific applications?

Speaker 1 4:17

Um TPO and PVC and even EPDM, which you don't see in this part of the country anymore because we're so far south and it's it's an all-black product. Okay. Um it's it's really big in the northeast, um, up in the northern countries, Michigan areas, um, because it's black and it does attract the sun a little bit more and it helps helps melt the snow and those kinds of things. So it helps them out quite a bit. Um down here in the south, um, typically you're gonna see those white membranes, TPO, PVC, um, different colored metal roofs, um, especially on the beaches. Uh it just holds up really well there.

Michael Carro 4:54

In in if you were gonna rank if you had the same roof and you could have all three all three options were available, can you talk to us about the cost differences and strengths and weaknesses of shingles versus TPO or PVC and metal?

Speaker 1 5:12

Yeah. So as you guys know already, um shingles are gonna go on residential homes. I mean, they're built for steep slope uh facets that are on a roof. Uh most commercial buildings you're gonna run into, they're going to be flat roofs or they have a quarter of an inch slope on them. Those are designed more for the TPOs and the PVCs and the EPDM. From a cost perspective, uh PVC is probably going to be your most uh I don't want to call it expensive, um, but it's it's a little bit higher per square foot to put the system down. Uh TPO is a very is a very good economical system to be able to put down on a flat roof because most of these roofs are you know five, six, seven thousand square feet uh of roof area.

Michael Carro 6:01

So I guess I've always looked at PVC and TPO as interchangeable, but not not really understanding one was better or one was more expensive. So what are the unique it it are you getting warranty uh better warranties with PVC or why would one choose PVC over uh TPO?

Speaker 1 6:23

TPO is a more of the middle-of-the-road membrane. Um it's it's very good on membranes or on buildings where you're not gonna have chemicals that are spilling out on the roof or things like that. Um, PVC is designed for chemical plants, it's designed for uh restaurants that Burger King's a great example. I mean, they're cooking all day long and they've got grease coming out of their out of their fryers. Um, it it is more resistant to fats, it's more resistant to chemicals, that kind of thing.

Michael Carro 6:54

Okay, I had no idea. That's yeah, that's completely new to me.

Don Redhead 6:57

Yeah, my understanding was PVC, like you said, was was more restaurant industrial use. TPO was more cost effective, but there was another gentleman, I forget what company he was with, he said that the TPO, I'll say like I don't molecular, very small uh amount, had a little more elasticity to it for big fluctuations in temperature, um, as well as uh if we were susceptible to getting hit with hail, it it actually held up better to hail than PVC. I don't I don't know if this is um correct or not. What is your opinion on that?

Speaker 1 7:37

You know, um just think about it from this perspective perspective. You've got a 60 mil TPO sheet versus a 60 mil PVC sheet. If you have the right um coverboards underneath, that's what's protecting your roof more than anything. I mean, yes, the PVC and the TPO that's keeping the water out, but from a structural standpoint, um, hail, it's I don't think it's gonna damage one worse than it will the other.

Michael Carro 8:04

Okay. So let's go on to the next level, right? You just mentioned. So we have we have been talking about the surface that you would actually see or walk on. But then there's this, I I call it just a high density foam board. Uh I don't know what that's called, but can you walk us through because that also has to be done with slope and things of that nature? If the roof doesn't have a good slope, you can you can create slope with this product. Is that right?

Speaker 1 8:32

That is true. Yeah. Um, typically uh a TPO system is going to be whatever deck type you have, whether it be a metal deck, uh wood deck, concrete deck. Um, as a matter of fact, we're working on one now. We we finished the PVC roof and it has a concrete deck on it that had an old modified roof on it. And we tore it off, and uh we suspect uh that it's got a little bit of taper in the concrete. These buildings uh in this Penskill area were built a long, long time ago. So um, but we did put a tapered system on that. We so we took on a concrete deck and we used low rise foam and we put uh five inches of poly iso, flat poly iso, and then we took a tapered polyiso board made of the same product. It's just a four by four board, and we tapered everything to the back because the the gutter is on the very end of the of the building. Okay. Okay, so what that did for us, we were able to glue our our membrane down, and as it rains on the building, water goes straight to the to the gutter on the on the downside.

Michael Carro 9:36

All right. So we talked a little bit about that. So all right, so let's just finish the the cross section of the roof, right? So you have the roof substrate, whatever, whatever it was built out of wood, metal, concrete. Has no roof on it right now. Okay. Walk me through each layer that would go on, or maybe those are the only two layers, but walk me through each layer that would go on to a surface.

Speaker 1 10:02

Okay. Let's just say this this table is is our wood substrate. Okay. So we're gonna come in and we're going to put a two and a two and a half inch poly iso board. They're four foot by eight foot long.

Michael Carro 10:15

Straight to the straight to the wood. Straight to the wood, yes, sir. And how do you apply it?

Speaker 1 10:19

And it we use ribbons of low rise foam, and we spray it on the on the concrete and stick the board to it. Once everything's covered, we go back and do the same thing again. Because in the state of Florida, you have to have R30 R value on anything that you're re-roofing.

Michael Carro 10:38

So this is acting as an insulation as well. Yes, sir. So it's not just a structural, it's an insulation R value.

Speaker 1 10:46

That's that's true.

Michael Carro 10:47

Okay.

Don Redhead 10:48

So you're using now, do you use something different than the foam for wood to adhere?

Speaker 1 10:53

You can you can mechanically attach it. That's with screws and and insulation plates. So you can't.

Don Redhead 11:00

Well, it's cost, but yeah, all the factors someone's looking at.

Speaker 1 11:04

I like mechanically attached much better. I think it's a a I think it's a more substantial product than than low rise foam. Um, and it's more cost effective. Uh that low rise foam can get pretty expensive, especially if you have a large, a large building.

Don Redhead 11:21

I've heard someone in the past refer to when they did a concrete one, they were and maybe it's the low-rise foam, but they said they had chemically adhered it. Is that using low rise foam or is there a different is there different ways to adhere that ISO board?

Speaker 1 11:36

Um low-rise foam or um, I mean you can use you can use asphalt, but um that's that's not very that's not used very much around here anymore.

Don Redhead 11:46

But he just made it sound like it was very intensive smell, like almost like it was some kind of glue that they were using uh to adhere the two, you know, make concrete and and foam, you know, almost one. Not that I'm aware of.

Michael Carro 11:59

Okay, all right. Yep. So let's step out of this sausage making, which really most people don't care about. Now let's drive into um why we're well what what this podcast is all about. And that is really for people to invest in in real estate.

unknown 12:15

Okay.

Michael Carro 12:16

And so now they identify a property, and one of the four four MEPR is our focus mechanical, electrical, plumbing, and the R is for roof. So, but the roof and mechanical are the two most expensive things. Number one, what are things that a prospective investor should look for as it relates to the roof? And then when they're walking a property, and then if they decide to make an offer on the property and ultimately get it under contract, what are the steps that they should do to have it properly inspected?

Insulation, Taper, And Roof Layers

Speaker 1 12:50

Okay. The first thing that you need to get to do once you get up on the roof is overlook the membrane really, really well. Um, if you can find out how long that roof has been on there. Um, that's a great thing. Look for areas in the roof where the wall flashings are coming off the walls. That that tells us as roofers, hey, water has gotten behind there at some point and it's forced that membrane off the wall. And if water got in there one time, it's probably gonna get in there again. Take a look at all the copings. Uh, take take a look at all the penetrations.

Michael Carro 13:25

What's a what's a coping?

Speaker 1 13:26

I apologize.

Michael Carro 13:27

That's okay. I'm gonna stop you every time.

Speaker 1 13:30

I and I'm okay with it. Yeah, coping is the metal that goes on top of your walls. Um, it goes your your membranes are wrapped up the side of the wall, okay, the wall that's around the building, and it's glued to the wall. And then you put your coping cap on, and it it in it encases the coping. So water can't, water's not gonna flow up. Right. So it's it's a very good um product to keep water out of the wall flashings because once water gets down behind the wall flashings, it's just gonna run down as low as it can go and then find the place that it could travel.

Michael Carro 14:07

So, Don, is that something you typically call a roof cap?

Don Redhead 14:10

Uh usually I call it coping. I don't know what is the difference between a roof cap and coping. Okay.

Michael Carro 14:18

It's just terminology.

Don Redhead 14:19

So probably three or four years ago, I probably called it roof caps. Now that I've I've learned the language more, I call it coping.

Michael Carro 14:26

Okay. See, I'm still in the roof cap world. So I I understand. Only because I would never remember the word coping uh unless I'm in in a fetal position in the corner, uh, dealing with something that my wife did.

Speaker 1 14:38

So we're just all trying to.

Michael Carro 14:41

A lot of coping. Okay. Sorry. So you you you got you check out these copings, and then what else are you looking for?

Speaker 1 14:48

Um look at all the penetrations that come out of the roof, the the gas stacks that come out of your restrooms, um, any exhaust that may come out of a kitchen. Um, a lot of these buildings uh have kitchens in them, a lot of restaurants, um, those kinds of things. And um if you can figure out if the deck is sloped, um that is that's a big consideration when it comes to if you need to re-roof that building because tapered insulation drives labor up and uh it's just a more cost effective if you can find a building with tapered with a tapered deck on it.

Michael Carro 15:22

What are things that um people can do? Now I'm I'm gonna tell you where where I'm when I go into I go onto a lot of roofs that have just a myriad of junk everywhere, it's like how did all this stuff get up here, you know? And sometimes I just think it's years of of uh technicians going up there and just not caring and they leave stuff, or maybe employees go up there for odd reasons, who knows? But how do you maintain the good healthy roofs over time once you own a property?

Speaker 1 15:56

Well, uh I'll say that, you know, monthly, uh quarterly, um, you know, a lot of it depends on the area that you live in. Um but a quarterly maintenance program is a very good thing for any business owner that owns a big industrial building. Um number one, you're finding problems before they get so bad that they can't be repaired. And number two, you're able to look for those things that have been thrown on the roof or blown on the roof. Um, you're able to look at your drains, at your scuppers, make sure they're not stopped up with leaves, pine straw, the things that blow around uh as as we get wind. Um so that that's what I would say. Yeah, just making sure you get a good maintenance program.

Michael Carro 16:41

Now, Don, you you you typically I'm thinking about a roof right now that we have on Palafox. Yep. That you had a lot of issues in there that you you have done a much better job uh hiring somebody to do what Max is talking about. Walk walk us through what you have done on that particular building um on a regular basis.

Don Redhead 17:03

Uh if it's the one I think you're talking about, so that one we have a little unique issue where we have a tremendous amount of foliage that that comes up over the roof. So it it constantly is is shedding. Whatever type of plant this is, it's ridiculous. Um, so we constantly clean the the roof internal gutters. So those are kind of the first stores, the lowest point on the roof.

Michael Carro 17:28

And uh and pause there. One of the things that we got into this is we you constantly had backups that were were really becoming problematic. So walk them through how we discovered this was actually an issue on this roof.

Don Redhead 17:42

Yeah, so it was it was it was doing that, it was backing up and actually going where this the scuppers in this scenario and some roofs, I guess I don't know what differentiates them. They were almost more of an overflow relief valve. And those were actually getting stopped up too. Someone had even thrown a mop head into one of the scuppers one time. So this whole thing is just I mean, and how does that happen, right? I mean, someone's throwing a mop head on a roof and it's getting into the drains, but uh a lot of the vines were growing over the side, so we've had to trim them, you know, every time we're up there, which is usually corally, clean these uh scuppers and gutters out simultaneously because it was it was backing up and going into the wall. Uh it wasn't even really going into the space uh as so much as unless it was an extreme scenario, it was really going into one of the exterior walls, which was kind of interesting. Simultaneously, we found out they had a split mini-split wall system uh that also was was leaking. So it's like everything, right?

Michael Carro 18:51

Every and this is something we call the neighbor.

Don Redhead 18:54

This is the neighboring property, correct? Yeah, though, neighboring was with the vegetation causing the issue on our property, um that we have to deal with. I mean, I don't know what we could go poison the plant, but that's just not reasonable, right?

Michael Carro 19:08

Good idea.

Don Redhead 19:09

Somehow it died. I have no idea. Um, no, so now what we just I guess we just maintain it, you know, it's very uh uh it's become our problem. But yeah, as I've I've dealt with other properties around here, there's another one. Um it's not roof related, but it it is, it's a lot of water diversion we have to deal with. Obviously, we we were just looking at a roof um earlier, and one of the big things that we're trying to finalize was water diversion. Um but yeah, it's it's it's always a challenge that we have to deal with.

Speaker 1 19:43

Yeah, and and and back to your point, Michael, the the maintenance program is huge on commercial buildings. Um we run into a lot of properties where they'll come out and they'll call us out and they'll say, We really need to get this repaired. Well, you know, Mr. Customer, this isn't

Roof Due Diligence Before Closing

Speaker 1 20:00

repairable. This is way long past that. And that's what that maintenance program will help a homeowner or business owner.

Michael Carro 20:06

So if somebody hires you for a maintenance program, um what is it that you actually do? You go visit the site, you get on the roof, you just what are you looking for? And obviously it depends on the type of roof, but let's assume you either have a metal roof or a TPO PVC roof. Okay. What are you looking for?

Speaker 1 20:24

We're looking for exactly the things that you've mentioned earlier: trash on the roof, the drains that are clogged up, um, if there's uh wall flashing's coming off, just obvious areas that if there's not now, there's going to be in in a short time problems with the roof. And um we typically gear those uh maintenance programs to hey, we're gonna fix it up to a certain point, but if it's beyond that, let's talk about it and make sure that we get it fixed the right way.

Michael Carro 20:53

So the uh one of the things that I wanted to address is uh, and Don does a great job of this, is on the roofs that we have that are metal, we really focus on the the gasket, the rubber gasket on the screw. And the way Don has described this to me in the past is the the screw is is the potential cancer for the roof. And if the as the gasket wears down, if the rubber goes away, the the the uh the rust from the screw then spreads to the metal roof. And our goal is to capture that screw when the when the gasket is burned off or or wears off, or and and that's when we will move that's when we will replace all the screws on the roof and get fresh gaskets. And it seems to extend the the life of that metal roof significantly. Is that Don's way of just making more money off of us, or is that a real thing? I need you to to fact check this. Right now.

Speaker 1 22:01

I think I might be getting trapped here, but I'll I'll give you the right answer. I'll get out of this. Those those that is a real thing. Those gaskets are made out of EPDM. And EPDM is has carbon in it. And the sun will pull that carbon out and they'll get brittle and they'll it'll it'll just flake away. So yes, that is a real thing. And um there there are multiple ways to fix a metal roof, but that is probably the most cost-effective way is to is to put new screws in it because think about a metal roof as the wind blows, um, those metal panels are moving, that building's moving just a little bit, right? And if that screw gets loose a little bit, um, it's gonna wallow the hole and make it bigger. Um, so sometimes we have to go in and put oversized screws in to make sure that the panels are being held down like they should be.

Michael Carro 22:50

So if Don has a screw loose, how do you manage that situation? Just gotta let it ride. Just let it ride.

Speaker 1 22:58

Just let it leak. Yeah, I've I've known Don a long time and I haven't seen a screw loose, but you know, you never know. You can go. I don't know.

Don Redhead 23:08

So kind of going back to so the preventative maintenance is a big thing. Is there anything else that they're doing on the roof? Are they are they probing? Are they checking seams? Or is it really that kind of just walk it in general, just more observational and picking up debris before it becomes uh a problem where another tech goes up there and just steps on a screw?

Speaker 1 23:31

No, uh what we find a lot is mechanical contractors will go on the roof and they're not the most uh they're not the most careful folks. They'll they they have a lot of tools, they use a lot of screws, they'll drop screws on the ground and they can't find them uh on the roof. They can't find them. Somebody goes up behind them and steps on it and it pokes a hole in the roof. Right. And that's what we find a lot.

Michael Carro 23:51

That's what we seem to have a big problem with, is is, and I was it is the mechanical contractor that seems to leave the most stuff, even if they replace stuff and then they don't. I don't know why they just don't take it down with them, you know.

Don Redhead 24:04

Where are they getting these fasteners? I'm so confused because some of the fasteners I find on the roof are not used in any kind of mechanical type of application. I found I found a giant rock as big as this tablet, maybe a shade smaller, on a three top of a three-story roof.

Speaker 1 24:25

Uh that's an odd one.

Don Redhead 24:26

I mean, I'm I'm I'm just saying, like so mop heads rot.

Michael Carro 24:30

Hey, what'd you find what'd you find on top of the roof? Um that where my salon sweets is.

Don Redhead 24:37

There's a homeless man just sleeping up there on a roof, new construction.

Speaker 1 24:42

Um, right. I said you gotta have a place to lay your head down.

Don Redhead 24:48

Yeah, I mean, and it had apparently, you know, nice ISO boards, foam boards. So it was soft. So we find a lot of crazy stuff up there.

Speaker 1 24:57

I found an arrow on a roof one time in Nashville.

Don Redhead 25:00

Like a bow and arrow type arrow? Yeah. Was it stuck in the roof or just laying on the roof?

Speaker 1 25:05

Evidently, somebody had gone out and they were having fun. Yep. And shot it up in the air and it landed on a flat roof and stuck right in the roof.

Michael Carro 25:12

Yeah. So is it the type of situation where if you pull it out, now you have a leak, so just leave it in place?

Speaker 1 25:17

Yeah. Totally. It's gonna leak anyway.

Michael Carro 25:20

Just pock around the leak. Well, I've heard if I got shot by an arrow, don't pull it out until you're to the doctors.

Speaker 1 25:27

That's what the old western said.

Michael Carro 25:29

That's what they say. That's what they say. All right. So now somebody decides to buy the building. Um, you go and you do an inspection. Walk us through what that inspection looks like, what the report might look like. Um and let me let me take it back a step. When when when Don and I are focused on purchasing a building, we we don't hire a a one-stop shop inspection company. We

Maintenance Habits That Prevent Leaks

Michael Carro 25:55

we focus on the MEPR, as you've heard us say in the past. So we actually hire a mechanical company, electrical company, plumbing company, and roofing company.

Don Redhead 26:02

We're on the type of asset. Yeah. Sorry, but yeah, some of these bigger ones now that we're looking at, you do want structural, you do want moisture, you do want some of these other things.

Michael Carro 26:12

Well, the moisture is always a huge thing. But so we hire the individual trades as opposed to a just a jack of all trades. And so we like to hire the companies that we would likely use to either repair or replace the product that they're inspecting. So we don't just get a report. We want, we want the, in addition to the report of the current conditions, we want a proposal on how we're going to fix or replace the system. So, Don, I know you've hired Max in the past to inspect buildings. Walk us through that exchange and what that typically looks like.

Don Redhead 26:47

What was the one the most recent we looked at?

Michael Carro 26:49

Probably Harbor View, 3605. Oh, Harbor View, yeah.

Don Redhead 26:53

Yeah. So uh got that one under contract. Someone was else was buying it. They were going to engage us for management. So we got brought into you know the transaction kind of early phases, which is what we want. Uh, because then we're able to deploy kind of the strategy that Michael was was just talking about. Uh had you go up there and look, what talk to me about what you kind of found, you know, up there. How did you address it? How did you approach that? Because it was a relatively new roof, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 1 27:25

I'm thinking of a totally different roof.

Don Redhead 27:27

This is the one 25 West Cedar. This is a seven-story building right on the water.

Speaker 1 27:31

I I remember that roof. Um, I actually looked looked at that roof uh a few years ago as well. Um, but that roof is in relatively good shape. But the things that I looked at were um the wall flashings, the the drains, uh, make sure that they're because I think in the past they they had a little drainage problem. Um but um the drains and making sure that um the membrane is tight on all the seams. So I took a probe with me and I probed all the seams, uh up the walls, uh made sure all the scuppers were cleared out, made sure all the drains were cleared out. Um any penetrations that are coming through the roof where um every time he says that I'm thinking penetration. I can start probe. Yeah, right. Um kind of got me off track there. Yeah, come on. In in any event, um making sure that there are no um problems with where the membranes are welded together. Um, a lot of the pipes that come through the roof are there, there's a hole board in the concrete. Um, so any water that gets in there is just gonna go straight down into the building. So those are very important. Those kinds of things are are what are looked at on that particular roof.

Don Redhead 28:45

How do you deal with so you know many times we get a a property like that, maybe clean bill of health on the roof, but somehow there's leaks inside. What is you know how do you balance? So somebody's bought this property, roof seems fine, mechanical seems fine, plumbing seems fine. How should they work with the roofer to to find you know where these leaks are happening? Because we go into a lot of examples, uh they come from everywhere. But what's the best strategy to deploy when you're you've post-closed, now you're trying to work and find and and track down these issues?

Speaker 1 29:25

Yeah, I I think uh hiring a reputable um roofing company, that's one now roof leaks can be very, very difficult to find. I mean, think about the way that water runs. I mean, it's gonna run to any place that it can get in easily. So um we we just dealt with a roof leak on a building. Um and it's it's taken it's taken three, four, five, six days to find this thing. And um, but once you find it, I mean you're you're in much better shape. But um a reputable uh company and then um just making sure that you stay with it. I mean, there's ways to track the the leaks back to their origin point, and we did this on this roof. I mean, we would we would cut areas into the roof uh under the insulation to make sure that there was a wet there, and when we find the wet, we can kind of track it back to where it's coming from.

Don Redhead 30:20

What's your opinion on uh coatings?

Speaker 1 30:24

I think coatings are a good um roof life extender. Um in my opinion, um they're they're not they're not meant to be a roof system, but they're meant to be a system that is gonna help a business owner uh extend the roof of their life versus a brand new TPO roof that you're gonna get a 20-year warranty on that um a manufacturer is gonna hold for you.

Michael Carro 30:54

Now, uh let me ask you two questions. Number one, do you guys do uh coatings?

Speaker 1 30:58

We do.

Michael Carro 30:59

Okay. And so the coatings that that I've had experience with um through one of my good clients, he he will do it. It's it's a it's obviously a uh significantly lower cost, but he still gets a 10-year warranty with it. And so that seems like a pretty good trade-off. You're still getting an a an that extension, right? Now the roof has to be in my understanding, it it can't be at the point it needs to be replaced. It has to be while the roof is still healthy.

Speaker 1 31:32

That's true, yeah. And and and I see a lot of times um guys will want they they know about coatings, um, or or they've heard that, you know, in in somewhere, maybe a friend, uh, somebody said, Oh, just get a coating and you'll get a 10-year warranty. Not every single roof is gonna get a 10-year warranty. It is based on what you just said, the health of the roof. Um, but the roofing company that you hire should know that. We we can't we can't put something on here that we know is gonna fail. And I I just think that that's the the wrong way to treat a customer.

Michael Carro 32:04

So I'm gonna make up a scenario. Uh just so I I've got a I put on a 20-year roof, or or I have a 20-year roof and I'm 15 years into it. Still the health of the roof seems to be good. Would that be you wouldn't do it at 20 years, right? Because it probably has degraded to the point where you can't do it. But if you were to predict a timeline, at what is a good timeline to um, if you had to say the number of years into a 20-year life, um would you do a coating?

Speaker 1 32:38

If I've got a TPO roof that is, let's just say it's 17 years old. Okay, and I go up and I'm starting to see scrim showing. What is scrim? It's it is the fiber that's embedded into the TPO sheet. Okay, gotcha.

Michael Carro 32:53

Um some type of fraying that you're seeing. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 32:57

If I'm seeing things like that, if I'm seeing areas of water

Leak Hunting And Roof Coatings

Speaker 1 33:00

ponding, you know, as it rains, the water's not flowing off the roof like it should. If I'm seeing uh seams fail, that kind of thing at 18 years, yeah, it it's more than time. Um, I would say probably to answer your question directly, probably somewhere around 15 to 18 years.

Michael Carro 33:18

Okay. So well into the life cycle, now you get a little bit of extension, but you gotta, it's a delicate balance. If it gets too far, you're gone, so you've got to replace.

Speaker 1 33:27

Typically, yes.

Michael Carro 33:28

Yep. Okay. Good question, Donna. The the coatings, I think, is a big deal. That's uh it's kind of been taking the industry by storm because it's such a much lower cost solution than a complete replacement.

Don Redhead 33:41

Yeah, and I I still struggle with them big time.

Michael Carro 33:44

Um, because it's I think it's tell me what your struggle is, Don. Talk to me.

Don Redhead 33:49

How much time do we have?

Michael Carro 33:50

We have time.

Don Redhead 33:51

Time. Um it's it seems like it's not just the the quality of the the existing substrate, but it's also the type of of roof. It seems like if I have, and this is something I'm just starting to marinate on, uh, that'll lead me to another question. If I have a good slope with a with a decent quality roof, I'm not so opposed to the coating, but it's it's it's also the once again, you're saying quality, but I'm saying the type of of environment that it's in. I don't I don't like these really flat roofs with these coatings where I have water sitting on the coating for an extended period of time. I know they've come out with a few more, but I just get it, it just seems like they never hold up.

Michael Carro 34:42

Um well, I was thinking of oddly enough, I I didn't even think about coatings on the TPO. The coatings that I've been focused on are on metal roofs. And so I didn't even know you could do coatings on a on a flat roof.

Don Redhead 34:55

Sure. I have like the coatings on the the modified, the bitmans. Those seem hold on. What is that?

Speaker 1 35:02

Oh that's a roof, that's a rolled up shingle.

Michael Carro 35:05

A rolled up shingle.

Speaker 1 35:07

It's just a big roll, the same thing shingles are made out of.

Michael Carro 35:10

Okay, yeah. So what we would call those um trying to think of a roof. The rolled roof, what's it called? Like that's what I call the asphalt roof. Is that what that is? So so if somebody said I have an asphalt roof, that would be that rolled and then the seam, and then the seams are a rolled roof, right?

Don Redhead 35:27

Um the one we're in.

Michael Carro 35:29

Or in this is a rolled man. And then you would see typically uh the black tar in between the panels that kind of seal them. Is that is that right?

Speaker 1 35:36

That is right.

Michael Carro 35:36

And you're calling that a bitumen? It's called a bitman, right?

Speaker 1 35:40

Yeah, a bitman.

Don Redhead 35:43

Kind of like the roof cap coping. I used to call it rolled. Now I call it bitman. But it's actually bitumen. I just call it bitman, whatever.

Michael Carro 35:53

No roofers gonna challenge. I mean, they're they're all know what you're talking about. Well, you're in the south. You can say wacky things, and people just uh-uh-huh. I got some bitumen in here.

Don Redhead 36:05

Okay, it's great. It is great. Uh, because now we're off topic. Um, what were we just talking about? So, yeah, that I don't like it in the flatwater.

Michael Carro 36:14

Bitumin is also can be coated. Is that what you're saying? That's true. And is it are each of these coatings a different type of coating? Um I mean, depending on the roof you're gonna do, a metal metal coating would be different than the bitumen, might be different than the uh TPO. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 36:31

There's there's acrylic, which is like house paint. Okay. Then there's uh urethane, polyurethane, yeah. And there's silicone, and there's four to five different components that you can put on a roof as a coating.

Michael Carro 36:48

And if I have a if I have a roof that needs to be replaced, I'm just gonna throw out numbers. I have a roof that I've got to replace, it's a hundred thousand dollars based on its size and and type. By comparison, what would a coating typically cost? Is it half? Is it 40%, 60%, roughly what are we looking at?

Speaker 1 37:07

Um you're you're probably looking between 40 and 50 percent.

Michael Carro 37:14

Okay, of the cost. All right. All right. Um, what else, Donnie?

Don Redhead 37:22

Just think about the role or the the coatings again. So at uh at what point, I mean, is it is your breaking kind of this really isn't a scenario for the rolled. I mean, besides the the quality, is it you take any other factors um into account versus just the quality of the existing roof where your recommendation may change to go with a coating or not go with it?

Speaker 1 37:49

Um I I think uh in a business are building owner's mind, I think that a lot of it a lot a lot of times it will come down to the cost of because these are large buildings um it's it's it's I'm sure it takes quite a bit of putting back and putting back to be able to save for a roof system.

Michael Carro 38:14

Um but it also depends on their their investment strategy. Sure. If they plan on if I were to plan on selling one of the buildings in the next five years, then a coding system might be fine. But if I'm planning on a long-term hold, I still might do the coding, but I'm gonna think about it differently. You know, uh, I don't want to not looking to spend money willy-nilly, but sure, if I plan on holding it for an extended long time. So if it's 40% of the cost and I'm still getting a 10-year uh uh warranty, I'm probably gonna go that direction. Sure. But if it's 60% or more, then I really have a decision to make. So it's if it's 60 to 70%, which sometimes it has been that high, then I'm like, well, then I think the decision is is this a short-term hold or a long-term hold? Right. So um, if it's a long-term hold, I'd rather spend the extra 30 or 40% and get a new roof, 20-year term, and stuff like that. So, like in this building, once we're done uh uh renovating, you know, the second floor, uh, or maybe not when we're done, but when we're in the process, we're gonna then replace the whole roof um just because everything else is new, let's go ahead and finish it off. And this is meant to be a long-term hold uh property. But um anyways, I think some of that, so when you're investing it, those decisions are part of the process of deciding how you're gonna spend the money. Um, because if you have to spend 40,000 versus 100,000, that can be an easy decision if your plan is to is only a five or an eight-year hold. Well, then then spending 40% makes a lot more sense than spending 100% um for a new roof. So those that's what the investing investing decision making has to come into play.

Speaker 1 40:08

I understand that.

Don Redhead 40:09

Yeah. So say someone's not in this area, what are they or what should they look for uh to determine if someone is a quality roofing

Choosing A Roofer You Can Trust

Don Redhead 40:20

you know outfit that they should go with? I think what questions should they ask? What should they look for?

Speaker 1 40:24

Yeah, I I think the longevity of the company speaks volumes on a on a quality roofing system, uh a roofing company. Um, asking asking those questions, how long you've been in business, what type of systems are you putting down? You know, how many employees do you do you have? Do you have inside crews or you do or do you use all subcontractors?

Michael Carro 40:48

I'm gonna add something to that, and that is the type of roof that you have, because for years we had different companies. We used one company that really did a great job with TPOs, but they were not very good, even though they're both of these guys are commercial contractors, sure, they weren't very good at the shingle roof. And vice versa, I'm thinking about certain companies that really did a great job with shingles, but really didn't do the best job at TPOs. So, you know, but how does a to Don's question, how does the Joblo consumer understand that strength and weakness?

Speaker 1 41:22

Okay. Um, I I think, and not all companies have websites, but um you can ask those questions. Hey, how many, how many um low slip roofs have you installed, how many shingle roofs have you installed, those kinds of things. And the answers that you're gonna get um will kind of lead you to the direction of, hey, I'm asking you to replace my shingles, or I'm asking you to put replace 3,000 square feet of metal roof on my building.

Don Redhead 41:48

Right. Okay. Yeah, another another one I remember when we first kind of got started on certain sectors was uh a lot of times we'd ask subs who um was there a good location we could go look at work that you had completed recently. Absolutely. That was always a good test.

Speaker 1 42:05

Absolutely. And and you know, companies that are legitimate and been in business a long time, um, they're usually pretty well known in their area, and they should be able to provide that.

Don Redhead 42:17

Awesome.

Michael Carro 42:20

Well, sounds like you guys are done.

Don Redhead 42:24

Well, we've been at it for over 40.

Michael Carro 42:27

All right. Well, that wraps up another episode of the Blue Dirt Podcast where an idiot can make a killing in commercial real estate. Thanks for joining us. That's a wrap for this episode of Blue Dirt. We're here to help you build smarter, invest wiser, and create long-term value in commercial real estate. One solid foundation at a time. If you found today's insights useful, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know somebody who could benefit from these discussions, share Blue Dirt with them. Got questions or topics you'd like us to cover, reach out. We'd love to hear from you. Until next time, keep digging deep. Stay sharp, and remember real value is built from the ground up. See you on the next episode.